[Church Drummer]

Originally Posted by givemethebeat

honest criticism is far more beneficial than flowery analogy. Young people of this era play high impact extreme video games see videos of real death and are way more exposed to the reality of the world. IF I say that someone sux i will always back it up with why. don't confuse this comment. i am not saying that everyone that comes for a lesson gets the extreme treatment, just some. It works for me and believe it or not they actually respond and develop because it is in a language they understand. Ever been around 12 to 15 year olds and see how they communicate. If the skateboarder on the video does something lame, the kidz don't say" gee that was a good try maybe next time he should do this" .. No they just say dude that guy sucked!!!!!

'Positive reinforcement' I believe is the technique discussed in this thread...

I don't think anyone on here is against honest criticism. I just believe that honest criticism needs to be tempered and reinforeced with encouragement. No one on here is saying you shouldn't tell a student what he is doing wrong. We're just saying you need to also reinforce what he is doing right so he keeps doing it.

I've seen my oldest son (who is now a Captain in the Army) give up on the French Horn and quit High school band, because all his high school band director could do was harp on how he didn't like his tone. This was a kid who knew all his major and minor scales, and got a B+ on a grade 5 NYSSMA solo as an 8th Grader the year before. He practiced regularly and we would listen to him play long tones as the teacher suggested at the start of every practive session. I could here the improvement, and told him he was getting better, but he felt like the Band teacher was out to get him, because the band teacher never acknowledged the improvment, or encouraged him to keep working at it. He dropped out of band never to play again. The band director called me and asked why he dropped out because he was making good progress. If he had taken the time to tell my son he was getting better the outcome might have been different. If you've got a student and all you do is tell him what you don't like about his playing, and never acknowledge the good aspects of what he's doing, or tell him when he shows improvement he is going to get discouraged and quit. I'm sure even you if you tell a student "he sucks" one week will acknowledge when he shows improvement at the next lesson. I've raised two sons I know how teens age boys talk, I don't object to the words "you sucked" or telling a student what they did wrong. I object to that being the only thing you ever tell the student.

There are two sides to instructing correcting deficiencies, and reinforcing good performance. You need both!!

[mouse]

"We're just saying you need to also reinforce what he is doing right so he keeps doing it. "

No disrespect but this is how i train my dogs. Most yell commands at them and growl when they error, i train so they are rewarded for good and ignored when bad. Speaking in nice tones gives a dog confidence, they are not deaf (in fact have exceptional hearing compared to a human). They don't like being ignored when you are their master, so soon learn to be good. You have to be consistent with this type of training, it pays off.

Something iv'e alway told my daughter, if you want something always give a reason why (because) and you will usually get it or at least an acknowledgement of your request.
This point is valid to what CD is saying. If you tell someone they have erred (they suck), at least give them a good description as to why and some direction to where they can improve. If you don't know yourself, you should not make comment in the first place.

I have admirble respect for the experienced guitarists and other musicians i have played with who over the years have at times helped me in this way and pointed me in a right direction.

[guss]

Relly I might have been crazy, I figured out the Phyics behind the trick, if they didnt make it, for example, also i try to give kids tips on bhow they skate, like Ollies, i go out of my way (which i usaly skate in one place) to give them tips on how they can improve 1. definition, 2. the needs improvement, by kicking front foot forwards(I recoment jumping over parking lot lines)There is allways that random ugly duckling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ollie_%...rding_trick%29
1.^
2.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3Den%26sa%3DN

[mattsmith]

Originally Posted by givemethebeat

honest criticism is far more beneficial than flowery analogy. Young people of this era play high impact extreme video games see videos of real death and are way more exposed to the reality of the world. IF I say that someone sux i will always back it up with why.

Unforunately as is the case with the Internet persona, one can reinvent his/herself at the drop of a hat. And it has been my experience on drum forums to observe that a large number of the older guys are doing precisely that, (not all) but most of the ones with the biggest mouths are just blowhards from the Elks Lodge or the VFW who have over the top opinions about everything, drums included. I'll never forget UPSTROKE, UPCHUCK or whoever he was talking to the young guys here like we were that poor kid who tries to mow his lawn every Saturday, but can't do it because he follows him around telling him what a bad job he's doing. Now UPSTREAM talked enough actual info for one to believe that he had something to contribute. But his insight wore thin when it was so clouded in antiquated opinions and needless control issues that it lacked relevance.

Then you've got this character here^^^^^^ who doesn't get that his opinion lacks relevance because he's a lousy drummer. He says IF I say that someone sux i will always back it up with why. But what difference does that make if he's not even close to understanding how to back the assertions himself. So what does he really have for me? On the other end, I absolutely know what he gets out of it.

Now this isn't about disrespecting your elders when they are skilled, experienced and connected. For instance I am sure there are any number of older guys on this forum whose advice I would accept without a second thought. But as a young guy, I have little interest in taking crap from a bad musician who wouldn't normally be given the time of day if he wasn't sitting in front of a keyboard.

[Harry]

To all:
There is some well versed proza here to be enjoyed!!!
We all have opininons, and sometimes we give them when we are not even asked!! I do not see this as a problem.

Compared to the intrigues and sometimes hardship we will be subjected to when playing actively in a band, being it the circumstances within the band itself or outside factors, these forums are a breeze and great fun and we are not going to be harmed by a little bit of verbal scrapping.

I am in favour of putting a little bit of info in our public profile, so one can sort of read where we are coming from.

Now, if in these threads here we would not have known the resp. ages of the the contributors to this forum, would that in this thread have made a difference? ABSOLUTELY!!

This shows a: We are taking ourselves far too seriously,
and b: a litlle bit lack of respect/appreciation for a honestly voiced meaning or reply, regardles how good a drummer we are (think we are).

I am relatively new here, and I think it is great that drummers take the opportunety to express them selves freely, and speak there hearts how they feel about things.

I think we have a wealth of contributions to this forum, and the last reply of Mattsmith shows actually respect/appreciation for opinions from other age groups.

Happy drumming!!!
Cheers, Harry

[straightaway]

Originally Posted by UPSTROKE

This may get some people mad at me but I feel like I would like to get a dialog started on this subject. I'm new to this site, so I may be way out of line. But, I'm finding some harsh criticism of young drummers just starting out.
Those drummers among us that have been playing many, many years may have forgotten how we sounded at 13, 15, or 16 years old. We had big dreams & ambition for our musical future. We also, fortunately had a lot of energy to pour into playing drums. It was also a great way to relieve some of the frustration of events going on in our lives. These young people today are trying every bit as hard as we did to become great musicians and leave their mark on the planet. They don't have any where near the musical market selection that we did, but they just keep working at it anyway.
It is my philosophy that we have a responsibility to reach back and help any and all of these upcoming musicians of the future in any way we can. Wouldn't you have really appreciated that when you were at that age? What they need is confidence, encouragement, and positive assistance. Telling them that they are no good will help and encourage them how???
A positive attitude mixed with a lot of care, patience and guidance will be worth a lot more for all of us.

my advice to young people that are learning how to play drums
is to apply yourself completely and practice with people around you as often as possible

[mattsmith]

Originally Posted by UPSTROKE
This may get some people mad at me but I feel like I would like to get a dialog started on this subject. I'm new to this site, so I may be way out of line. But, I'm finding some harsh criticism of young drummers just starting out.
Those drummers among us that have been playing many, many years may have forgotten how we sounded at 13, 15, or 16 years old. We had big dreams & ambition for our musical future. We also, fortunately had a lot of energy to pour into playing drums. It was also a great way to relieve some of the frustration of events going on in our lives. These young people today are trying every bit as hard as we did to become great musicians and leave their mark on the planet. They don't have any where near the musical market selection that we did, but they just keep working at it anyway.
It is my philosophy that we have a responsibility to reach back and help any and all of these upcoming musicians of the future in any way we can. Wouldn't you have really appreciated that when you were at that age? What they need is confidence, encouragement, and positive assistance. Telling them that they are no good will help and encourage them how???
A positive attitude mixed with a lot of care, patience and guidance will be worth a lot more for all of us.

But see the problem with the above comment was that this poster stopped practicing what he preached the moment anyone questioned him on his own point of view. Several months ago I was told by someone that I was getting flamed on this site by some guy named givemethebeat, who was pretending to be some great older expert of drumming, but was saying ridiculous things that essentially amounted to unaccountable nonsense. Now I've been flamed before of course, but I usually make it a habit not to allow the really dumb stuff to get by, especially on a smaller forum where 2 or 3 guys can sort of take over and run the comments into the ground for weeks or even months. When I got here, that's exactly what I saw.

During my time dispatching givemethebeat (who had apparently caused a stir here for awhile with several posters) I noticed over to the side how UPSTROKE was getting more and more irked that people were'nt paying enough attention to him. But instead of letting me take care of an issue quickly he decided to interject his POV regarding decorum, and forcefully.

Truth be known, this poster had no idea whatsoever of forum based decorum and instead tried to assert himself as the voice of moral authority for this website. I had also seen him try this with little success at another site, so I knew that his lecture had nothing to do with educating me, but everything to do with people spending more time with him. When an older musician pulls that with a younger guy the light switch just goes off, and all the flowery prose in the beginning is of no consequence.

After all teaching is a profession, and you have to learn that just like you would drumming. And if a guy comes here and has age thrown at you to blanket all these obvious things, then see ya later. Moreover, the issue is compounded by rarely seeing skillsets or even faces associated with Internet conversation.

Therefore young guys often ask...Does this older musician know what he is talking about? Is he trained? Can he actually play? You would be very interested to know that most of the really opinionated older posters on drum forums refuse to post their own work and browbeat you for even asking about it.

Now why do you think that is? Well, not being able to play is just one answer. There was a guy recently exposed on a hostile forum to be 15 years old when he had been slamming his peers for 2 years pretending to be a 45 year old music teacher. There's another over ay MXDP who has been doing the same thing except much worse for close to 4 years. He's just now about to get his come uppance.

Sure, if UPSTROKE lived up the road from me and I had seen him play and knew some stuff about him, then sure I would be willing to overlook some of the eccentric stuff, same as he would most likely overlook my foolish opinions that he didn't like. But when you come to these Internet forums, it's just not the same. There are too many people making it up on the spot for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with music.

Bottom line...if you want to lecture on a drum forum, you have to attempt to understand the dynamics of the place, provide polite evidence of your expertise, post a little music yourself, and go with that. Your own personal world seldom translates well behind a computer.

[david_remillard]

I have been playing drums for over 20 yrs. I only wish that I could've had positive support and influence when I first started out. I am responsible for getting a troubled 12 year old involved with music and playing drums. He's now 17 and playing very well. All it takes is encouragement, positive influence, time, and patience. The end result will always out-weigh the dropped-beats of a young person when they first start out playing.

[Silver.sonneillon]

Very true. I remember when I started out, my parents supported me a hell of a lot, and that encouragement, and those compliments all helped me grow o be a good drummer!

[DannyMeazell]

I agree with Skin. There was another forum where a couple people questioned everything I said. I am a professional seasoned drummer. When I gave these people a way to verify what I had told them they were not interested. They were more interested in belittling me instead of the truth. No one has a right to do that. They even went a step farther and contacted all my endorsement companies I had worked hard, some for years, to get and told them if they didn’t not drop me, they were going to knock their products in the drum forums. This is way below the belt and not right! It did cost me some good endorsements publicly but not privately, and the big boys with stones told them to kiss their corporate butts!
One day soon I will meet this person in person in a court of law, because I am going to sue!
Sorry if I got a little left field, but I think all young drummers should not only be encouraged, but us veteran drummers should do all we can to help them. I had some of the finest help in the world starting at 3. God bless young or inexperienced drummers! The best advice I can give you is Practice, Practice, Practice. After 50 years I still do, and believe me, it shows! What is worse if you don't practice, it really shows!

One other bit of advice I have for young drummers is one thing that helped me is very boring but it pays great dividends. Practice your rudiments, triplets, doublets, and technical skills, starting out very slowly, but concentrate on becoming very accurate and building speed gradually over time. It is some of the most important developmental skills you can learn. This is basic stuff I use every single day now, without even thinking about it. Don't you other guys agree? I know Paul Liam and I discussed that recently with a drummer friend in Greece.

And last but not least>>>>David, God bless you for being a positive role model!!! My boss, bandleader and best friend, Johnny Nitzinger is a positive role model for many kids holding lessons and summer clinics in Guitar, Bass, and songwriting for young people and acquiring scholarships for those that cannot afford them. A legend and clean for 10 years after a life of addiction he is making a difference. A cancer, stroke and pneumonia survivor, he was personally chosen to be the headliner 3 weeks ago at the 25th Anniversary of The Betty Ford Clinic in Palm Springs Ca.
We can all make a difference with some positive reinforcement. The difference in building and tearing down is how you handle the building blocks. The difference between positive and negative is like the saying goes, Lead, Follow, or get the hell out of the way! There is no difference in constructive criticism and criticism. It is still criticism. It is positive influence that makes the difference. It is caring and nurturing that makes the biggest difference.
Sorry I didn’t mean to write a book!
Danny