[guss]

Originally Posted by Grimreaper204

but dogs can't play drums, and well if you can teach one to play them then I'll start giving young drummers treats

My young dog can keep a beat, probably born with rythum.

[parkerdj]

Wow, this thread is a monster, but it's an interesting read, to be sure.

My own personal experience is limited, but I can remember some pros and cons.

I got my first kit at 15, and at 16 I saw Neil Peart in concert (actually with Primus opening, so "Herb" Alexander, too) and went home and wanted to be just like them. Problem is, I couldn't play like them.

I'm largely self-taught, and the first lesson I had to learn is that you have to crawl before you can walk. My "day job" is for a textbook publisher (books that train college students to be teachers), and a large school of thought is scaffolding... in other words, teach them a simple skill, and the build off of that into other skills. It's like the old addage: Keep It Simple, Stupid.

For instance, I worked with a percussion instructor in college who had gigged with some big names, and he basically told me I needed to rebuild my entire grip and approach to playing. At first, I was like "f**k off, I'm fine," and I took it personally. But over time as he would tell me about how he continued going to clinics and studying different styles, I realized that being hard-headed wasn't going to make me a better player. The thing was, he never told me I "sucked" but came at it from the standpoint of showing me that I could play with more versatility and control if I was willing to approach things differently. Biggest lesson I ever learned. Basically, "sure, you're good at the things you do, but you don't even realize the things you can't do yet."

Not sure what my point is, overall. I guess there are many ways to skin a cat. I myself tend to be my own toughest critic. I can play a 90 minute set, have people tell me it was great, and all I'll want to talk about are the three things I messed up. Conversely, if some hack came up to me after a set and told me I sucked, I'd kindly ask him to sit down and show me how good he is. But, I'm vindictive like that!

It takes courage to take criticism, but it can also take courage to give it. You never know how someone's going to react, and it can be a struggle between wanting to help someone get better and also NOT wanting to be the reason they up and quit.

[DannyMeazell]

What did he tell you about your grip. Were you holding the sticks with the Ringo grip of the classic fork grip with your left hand? I was taught the right was to grip sticks early, but I also learned the right does not always feel like the best way. Learning the proper way early was a plus. I now switch back and fourth, depending on what I am playing. I find I can get more power one way than the other. I have a knuckle on my right middle finger that has a permanent knot on it from smashing my knuckle into floor toms playing at extreme high speeds. I cannot even begin to get a ring on that finger
Danny

[parkerdj]

A caveat: I was speaking from the standpoint just of taking criticism/instruction. This was mainly focused around the fact that I played A LOT of timpani in high school and college.

I had always been brought up on the traditional matched grip, with the arms at a "^" angle and the palms down, stick between thumb and forefinger with the others curled around as "guides" if you will. Some call it the "German" grip, too.

He was trying to get me to roll my wrists over 90-degrees, so that my palms were facing inward/facing each other, with my thumb always on top. He also wanted me to bring my arms in a bit to my sides. Some call it a "French" grip.

It doesn't seem like much when you think about it; shoot, you're just turning your wrist. But, when you've been taught to play a certain way for 10 years in every lesson you've taken, it's hard to change. You really have to be willing to WANT to work on it. But, it did force me to really strengthen and use my wrists more, since you can't really sustain any kind of rolling or rhythm with your elbows when your palms/wrists are turned over like that.

My point was that I didn't really want to listen to the guy, because I was comfortable with my old grip and didn't see the point. But, when I really dropped my stubbornness and realized there was something to be learned from this guy, I was able to take things from it, especially in my mallet-playing. And, really, my set playing now is kind of a hybrid, with my right hand playing a lot of the "French" grip style on the hats/ride, and my left playing the more matched/"German" style on the snare.

[drummergyrl1390]

i can speak from personal experience in that I'm 18 and have had to deal with this for the past ten years... also , the fact that i am a girl has not helped at all... I have gotten so much crap and discouragment from men/boys about playing the drums...usually I have gotten the better parts and have outplayed them however when I went to audition for my church they told me that "girls can't play drums" which led me into a 3 year fight to be able to play , finally they decided to let me join the youth band .... they still wont let me join the church band... they called me up and told me that I was one of the best ones that auditioned... but that they decided to take the guy over me.....I totally understand

[CJDG]

That is absurd! Some of the most dynamic players I have heard playing the drums have been women. I understand fighting for something that you want... but with that much ignorance at work, in a church even, how do you push through to even want to play with them. Is this the mindset of the whole church, or just of the decision maker?

[drummergyrl1390]

it is...and i agree...well it is hard cause part of it is like... well why would i even want to play with them... most of it is as you said though is the decision makers..... I go to a fairly large church(about 3000+ and growing) there are a lot of problems within the leadership in our church.... i would look for another church but the teaching is exceptional and i leave for college in 5 months... so it would be kind of pointless to find a new church now. Also, I want to play, I love it, it's a passion that God has given me, and at the moment, this is the only oppourtunity I have to play, so I take it. The musicians however are very supportive and don't understand why the leadership treats me like that... so yeah it's mostly the decision makers of the church, which unfortunatly in the end always have the last say.

[Sean Francis]

Yes; we do need to encourage the younger generation to succeed.

However, sometimes a bit of "tough love" is in order to really get things done.

I don't think it's good to be overly rigid (to the point of being a jerk) when giving advice or critiquing a young player, but I do believe that a "no-nonsense" approach is absolutely necessary.

When I talk to young drummers, I try not to pull too many punches because it's important to know where other people think that you "fall short," so to speak. But I do so in a manner that is totally constructive. I had a bad experience with an older drummer who came to one of my performances and felt that he needed to pick apart everything from my playing to my choice in cymbals and drums. "You need to get a better ride cymbal," and "you need to go to a more traditional drum set," or "you sound like a rock drummer trying to imitate a jazz drummer," "get rid of that 'Real Book.' 'Real' drummers don't need that." At the time, I was pretty upset about what happened, but in the end I realized that using that kind of attitude when talking drums is just really asinine. Every time I talk drums with someone who is up-and-coming, I try really hard to let them know exactly what they can do to improve their sound/technique/whatever.

I'm pretty tired, so most of this is probably coming out as nonsense. Maybe I'll come back to this some other time when I'm a little more coherent.

[Sean Francis]

Originally Posted by drummergyrl1390

it is...and i agree...well it is hard cause part of it is like... well why would i even want to play with them... most of it is as you said though is the decision makers..... I go to a fairly large church(about 3000+ and growing) there are a lot of problems within the leadership in our church.... i would look for another church but the teaching is exceptional and i leave for college in 5 months... so it would be kind of pointless to find a new church now. Also, I want to play, I love it, it's a passion that God has given me, and at the moment, this is the only oppourtunity I have to play, so I take it. The musicians however are very supportive and don't understand why the leadership treats me like that... so yeah it's mostly the decision makers of the church, which unfortunatly in the end always have the last say.

Keep with it! Don't let the man/men get you down. Look at Hillary Jones; when she walked in for her audition for the Air Force groups, all the guys laughed. Turns out, she blew everyone out of the water and had the last laugh when she got the gig and those guys didn't.

Plus, college is a great place to explore your boundaries as a musician. Generally, it's a bigger place; thusly, there is a greater variety of musicians to play with. When the numbers are bigger, the effects of the politics are felt less intensely.

If I may, I will share with you my audition horror story:

Last year, I auditioned for the jazz band at a community college. The audition was to decide who would play for the jazz ensemble and who wold play for the vocal jazz rhythm section (which isn't very engaging, as you are just waiting on the vocalists most of the time). I feel I should preface this by saying that I'm a very humble person; the person that got my spot in the jazz band should not have gotten it. He's a good friend of mine, but not the best drummer; however, his parents donate large sums of money to the school. Enough said on that note? Methinks so...

The next year, the department decided I wasn't worth the scholarship (even though I bend over backwards for them on many occasions) and they ditched all of my jazz gigs. I was super bitter about it and wasn't expecting much when I went for my audition at the University. Now, because of all the preparation I have done despite my not getting accepted into any of the ensembles I've auditioned for here, I've basically made it into whatever jazz ensembles I want to partake in at the University.

It will pay off, even if it takes some time. Just keep pressing forward; when the time is right, you will be the next big thing for whoever chooses to really listen.

[parkerdj]

dg1390:
The good news is that you're not getting shut out because of your playing! Trust us: the rest of the world isn't going to be like your church. Aside: my wife and I recently started going to a new church, and the drummer already in place is a woman; I know in my heart of hearts that I'm a better drummer than her; but, I don't go to church to be in competition and/or to poach other people's jobs. I volunteered to be a "super sub" if she was ever unable to play, and I'm fine with that. At least now I know I'm helping to balance out the church-drumming-karma of the universe, lol.

The lesson here (IMHO) for you is a good one to learn at an early age: don't quit, don't give up, no matter how batsh!t the people holding you back might be. If the church leadership is as old-time as it sounds, their bottom line is membership. If I were you (and again, per my posts above, I'm a bit vindictive) I'd start looking at other churches, and tell them you're leaving the church to find one that's not so archaic in its beliefs and practices relative to gender roles, and that if they really want to keep you as both a member and a musician (you said they told you you're the best player, right?) they might want to reconsider their misogyny.

Re: the other stuff...
First and foremost, I generally don't offer critiques unless they are asked for, because I know I wouldn't want someone coming up out of the blue and giving it to me without me asking for it. To that end, I tend to believe two things at large that apply here:

1) that there's a right way and a wrong way to say any/everything, and
2) that you reap what you sow.

E.G.: 1) if someone's rhythm is loose and they ask me what I think, I could either flat-out say, "Man, you're loose," or I could (and would) choose to, in turn, ask them how often the band practices together, how often they get to practice on their own, etc. The point being to lead them to figure it out on their own and also to figure out ways to improve on their own. Self-discovery was my biggest ally growing up and learning to play.
2) I live in a mid-major city in the US, and sooner or later you get to play with pretty much every other band. If you get the rep of being a jerk, people are going to treat you like a jerk. This street runs two ways: if I'm an a$$ to the other drummers I play with (whether I like their music or not is of no consequence), they're going to tell others, and it's going to spread. In the end, no one's going to value what I have to say at any rate, because they're all going to think I'm a jerk. Likewise, if someone asks me for my opinion, and then doesn't care for it and treats me like a jerk, I'm going to remember that and pass it along, as well.