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  #1  
Old 10-04-2012, 04:14 AM
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Methods of practice for ENDURANCE (metal)


I'm wondering something, and the answer might just piss all of you off and make you want to get on the kit immediately.


I've been struggling with my endurance for ages. I'm fast as heck, but I can't hold a blast at 240-280 for long at all. I can only do them in short bursts. It came to my knowledge by Derek Roddy (may the drum gods forever favor you) that playing RUDIMENTS or different sticking/kick patterns for LONG periods of time will make your endurance shoot through the roof.

Yet, I keep being told that you have to change up your exercises quite a bit to get this going. So... With that being said, is it really that easy?

The answer might be yes. By playing the immigrant song with my left foot on the kick, my left kicks are improving big time. By alternating between 8ths, triplet 8ths, and doubles, my speed on double bass is improving a little. Same with my hands. It's only been a few weeks... But making up my own little patterns has proven effective so far.

What about you? What do you do to get your endurance killer? Do you think this is a good way to go about getting endurance, have you ever tried yourself?

Tell me all about it, maaaaaaaan. By the way I'm new. Hello all.
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2012, 01:25 PM
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Re: Methods of practice for ENDURANCE (metal)


Hey, welcome to the forum!

What kind of pedals do you have? Just wondering.
I don't have the best endurance, but what I do have I've developed in the way you explained. Another thing that has helped me is doing a measure of 16th notes, a measure of eighth/quarter notes, a measure of 16th, a measure of eighths, etc.
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  #3  
Old 10-08-2012, 05:42 PM
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Re: Methods of practice for ENDURANCE (metal)


Welcome to DSC first of all.

Double bass tech, is something that grows with knowledge and expertice.

I happen to know Jared on youtube for some years now. Have you tried the heel toe method yet?

Don't push yourself. Endurance is some thing that you need to be comfortable with and that will come with time. Also as Butter has mentioned, pedals have a main factor in this.

Kind of riding a bike.
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  #4  
Old 11-04-2012, 01:26 AM
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Re: Methods of practice for ENDURANCE (metal)


Heel-toe is really only ideal for those who have triggers. I'm also not trying to learn a new technique right now. Practicing diversification of technique is key, but you have to stay true to the technique you USE unless you absolutely must change it. Otherwise, your muscle memory serves you nothing.
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  #5  
Old 11-04-2012, 01:25 PM
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Re: Methods of practice for ENDURANCE (metal)


Heel-toe isn't any more ideal for those who have triggers than for those who don't. I assume you are referring to the fact that a lot of players who use the technique with triggers are people who are bringing the beater only as far away from the head as is necessary before making another stroke, in order to gain speed easily, thus allowing the trigger to become responsible for the volume that is sacrificed with the decreased power of short strokes. This is of course one way you can get a lot of speed without much effort, but I still believe that heel-toe is the best method. Just because you can get away with short strokes doesn't mean it's a requirement or essential part of the technique. Check out Derek Roddy or George Kollias, they both use heel-toe and triggers, but the triggers don't account for their volume and perceived power. These guys know how to use the technique properly and don't cheat the way I've described. Heel-toe is a legitimate method for anybody.
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  #6  
Old 11-04-2012, 02:24 PM
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Re: Methods of practice for ENDURANCE (metal)


You aren't understanding what I'm saying.

Note the use of the word ideal. It means in perfect conditions, you'd have triggers. Can you get power out of heel-toe? Sure. After a ****load (read: years) of practice. I've been drumming for 7 years and I'm in 2 bands, about to join another on the road and possibly replace the drummer they just kicked out. I'm not interested in learning another technique when I already have to do band practice/endurance practice/speed/coordination practice for around 4-5 hours daily.

Derek Roddy actually uses his whole leg. He has practiced heel-toe, but it's not the method he uses.
Neither does George Kollias.
George uses swivel. Roddy uses his legs. I also never said that it wasn't a legitimate technique, it's just NOT what I'm looking for. I play similar to the way Kollias has explain in his video, but I don't swivel.

Secondly, triggers are NOT cheating. I hate hearing this argument. If you could play with great precision at speeds like 250-280 bpm or even 300, but your kicks weren't that loud, you'd buy triggers. You'd use them, and you'd defend yourself. That argument is for people who are pissed they can't play that fast and can't afford triggers or afford the time it takes to reach those speeds.

Do you use heel-toe?
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:15 PM
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Re: Methods of practice for ENDURANCE (metal)


I am very sorry. Firstly, I made a mistake in confusing heel-toe with heel-up. I don't know what I was thinking! It was your claim that heel-toe is only ideal for those using triggers that caused me to misunderstand, making me assume that you were actually employing the "cheating with triggers" argument. Because of that, nothing I said is really relevant. I was talking about one thing and calling it another.

With that in mind, let me clarify the misunderstandings I produced with my idiocy. Sorry if it sounds like I'm repeating my last post at any point.

I agree that there is little gain in learning heel-toe, especially considering the time needed to use it well.

I was actually defending the use of triggers, not saying that only cheaters use them. I hate that argument as well. I do believe that some people use triggers to cheat, because it is possible to get volume and power with speed, but it's easier to have only speed and let triggers account for volume. In a live situation, amplification is obviously necessary and at higher speeds triggers provide better sound than mics. I only have a problem with the people who bring the beater back as little as possible and let the triggers do the power/volume work for them. That is cheating. Since I thought you were knocking heel-up and saying it required triggers, I was asserting that it was possible to use the technique legitimately without them. Roddy and Kollias are my examples, since they use triggers for amplification and clarity rather than a tool to allow them to play at high speeds using a lazy technique.

Also, George Kollias is known for using the "swivel," but he has said that the swivel plays no role in the technique. He says it makes sense for him to move his foot side to side, thinking of doing a double on the right, a double on the left, so on, effectively causing his foot to swivel. Without the swivel, which obviously isn't necessary (as you know), it's basically heel-up combined with heel-down ankle motion, as he describes in the video.

I don't use heel-toe I do something similar to you, actually. Kollias without the swivel.
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  #8  
Old 11-05-2012, 12:12 AM
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Re: Methods of practice for ENDURANCE (metal)


Jesus man, that makes way more sense now, haha. Sorry for going off there.

Yeah, heel up is where it's at. I do the same thing as you then. I try to keep my foot relatively flat, but not flat on the board. ****, that reminds me... I really need to adjust my pedals. Just to mess around with them really. I'm slowly realizing that maybe buying Demon Drives wasn't the best idea. They're SO adjustable that as soon as you get them feeling alright, you remember there's another component to mess with, and you can easily screw up whatever settings you had before. It's a long, grueling process of trial and error.

An update as to how I've learned: Muscle memory is key. You can't just play anything for long periods of time every day. You have to play certain things and develop them with power and of course speed. Another great tip for metal drummers to slowly roast your arms and legs: take a tempo that is a challenge, but NOT a threat, for nonstop playing. For me, this is about 190 right now. I can do higher speeds, but it makes no sense to do that if I'm working on precision and endurance. Alternate between 16th notes on the bass drum and blast beats, but do so every minute. One minute of nonstop blasting (on the hihats, with NO breaks and NO fills), then one minute on double bass with your hands keeping time in some manner. But keep them moving. If you try doing fills, make sure their on time, and repeat the fill for a few bars before doing a different one. This will give you a slight cross-drumset endurance workout with your arms. Do this until you start feeling that burn get very close to pain. Pain is bad, remember. Burn is good, pain means you're straining your muscles beyond the help of protein and a good night's sleep. Do that often, and you'll have to stop drumming at some point.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:13 PM
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Re: Methods of practice for ENDURANCE (metal)


No problem, not your fault!

I've messed around with Demon Drives, but not enough to know much about the grief of the endless adjustability. Maybe they're difficult to dial in the way you want, but even if they aren't perfect for you yet, they have to be better than something with less customization possibilities. It will be worth it once you do find the right settings.

Building speed/endurance in drumming is the same as it is with weight lifting, running, or anything else like that. Sounds like you have the right ideas.
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  #10  
Old 01-24-2013, 09:49 AM
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Re: Methods of practice for ENDURANCE (metal)


Dave Lombardo stayed at my house one night and the next morning he was gracious enough to give my son and me a drum lesson.

I asked him the question "how do you have the stamina to go 90 minutes at tempos over 200 all nigh?"

He told me its just like running track. When you first start out you can only run a few minutes before getting a stitch. But the coach tells you to keep running. So the next day you find you can run just a little bit longer before you get that stitch. But you keep at it. And then after a few days you find you can run even longer before cramping up. Pretty soon, your stamina and endurance build up to where you can go for hours.

So his point was you build stamina over time.

One person above mentioned "burn" in their post. When you feel that excruciating lactic acid burning, try to push past that and keep going for 30 seconds or more past that burn and you will be building that endurance.
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