drums drum set drummer
 
Drums resource and community for the online drummer
  The time is now 02:32 PM GMT -4.  
Search Drum Set Connect:
 
 
 
Site Features
Drum Forum
Drum Lessons
Drum Reviews
Drum Kit Photos
Shop
Drum T-Shirts
Premium Membership
Get in Touch
Advertise
Link to us
Contact us
Sponsors
Find Drums


Links
 
Go Back   Drum Forum at Drum Set Connect > Drum Forums - All About Drums > Play the Drums - Drum Talk


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-02-2007, 04:23 PM
lastditch's Avatar
lastditch lastditch is offline
Level 9 - Seven Stroke Roll
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Holiday,FL
Posts: 253
lastditch is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by UPSTROKE View Post
If you go to a club and play for free when all other bands are getting payed---You just screwed every band that follows you out of a paycheck. It is people like you that have caused all musicians pay to fall into the toilet. I Think that it is just "Marvy" that none of you guys need the money. Most musicians DO need the money. I'm sure that RUSH, THE ROLLING STONES and all the others turn money away and say "We'd rather play for nothing because we love you". RIGHT!!
The band that I'm in does a lot of gigs for nothing. Places like RETIREMENT HOMES, VFW, NURSING HOMES, CHILDRENS HOSPITALS, SENIOR CENTERS.
We also will give a DISCOUNT PRICE for a club managers WEDDING PARTY if he has booked and PAYED us in the past.
We are proud to give our time and talent back to the community that comes out to help support us and other musicians in the area. But when you walk on that stage in a club and do a "Freebie", the manager thinks he no longer needs to pay ANY BAND. If you don't want the money, give it to your favorite charity.
PLEASE DON'T CUT THE PRICE OF MUSIC DOWN TO "0".
Ha,I see Upstroke is still here making friends and taking names.Listen to you blaming this guy for the state of the music industry.Well IMO Upstoke,its guys like you that give musicians a bad name.No wonder there are no decent venues around anymore,vultures like you running around demanding perdiem and a guarantee to play the Elk's Lodge or Sunset Hills Retirement Home.lol.If he wants to play for free...fine...it will give him an edge when booking and it makes him happy.Maybe you should go to that Rent-a-center and rent some godd%$m class.Free gigs @ a retirement center...hahahaha...senior centers and nursing homes....hahahahahahaahah...These venues are making a killing at the door!!!!I mean seriously...Hey,after your next killer set at Sunset Hills,why not start filling out your paperwork.
Reply With Quote

Old Sponsors
Sponsored Links
  #12  
Old 07-02-2007, 05:16 PM
Church Drummer's Avatar
Church Drummer Church Drummer is offline
Level 11 - Ten Stroke Roll
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 353
Church Drummer is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to Church Drummer
I'm glad I don't live in the cities that you guys do!! I don't get rich playing out, but I at least get back some of my investment in instruments, and accesories, etc. The going rates for bands in some of your areas sounds awfully low. I play trombone in an 18 piece big band and we usually get at least $40 each for a wedding or private party (more if there is travel involved). For a club gig we'll get at least $20 each for 2 sets (plus a share of the door). We did a lot of community service type jobs to get our name out there (and still take one occasionally for a worthy cause). If you're band is good, and you want to be professional look into getting a booking agent they'll get you money for play. You have to give them a cut, but it's worth it to get the paying gigs. When you're playing in a club the owner is counting on you to bring in clients that he can sell booze and food to. Personally I think if you do it for free you are being taken advantage of. You are also undercutting the bands who are out there who are trying to make a fair wage for their work. If your goal is to be a professional musician then playing for free for someone else who is trying to make money off of you isn't the way to go about it. It you want to play for free and music is your hobby then I would suggest playing community festivals, charity fund raisers, if your a rock group volunteer to play dances for the local High Schools. I personally wouldn't play for free for a club that is trying to make money off of your efforts. Just a matter of principal with me, If the establishment is making money off of my efforts I should be getting a share of the profit.
Reply With Quote

  #13  
Old 07-06-2007, 03:11 AM
skinslapper's Avatar
skinslapper skinslapper is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Perth Western Australia
Posts: 1,546
skinslapper is on a distinguished road
Lastditch, calm down. I don't think Upstrokes comment was putting all of the worlds problems onto one guy. Buy the same token, I agree it's not fair to give one mans gig practice all the blame. Please the last thing our new look forum needs is another b%#@hfight from you two. Now drop it.
Reply With Quote

  #14  
Old 07-06-2007, 07:11 AM
lastditch's Avatar
lastditch lastditch is offline
Level 9 - Seven Stroke Roll
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Holiday,FL
Posts: 253
lastditch is on a distinguished road

Question


Quote:
Originally Posted by skinslapper View Post
Lastditch, calm down. I don't think Upstrokes comment was putting all of the worlds problems onto one guy. Buy the same token, I agree it's not fair to give one mans gig practice all the blame. Please the last thing our new look forum needs is another b%#@hfight from you two. Now drop it.
Upstroke can bash people's posts and tell them to rent a brain and I get a warning?I'm so tired of seeing his incessant ranting on these forums.Go look thorough his posts,these incidents are far from isolated.I will reitterate the fact that there are ways to get your point across in a mature and respectful manner.Do you not realize that guys like Upstoke and Givemethebeat drive people away from these forums...soon enough it will just be opinionated closed mindedness spewing off in here all day.I know that I rarely come by here anymore because of this.I know STN,Pyro and others who used to frequent but are sparsely posting now.
Reply With Quote

  #15  
Old 07-06-2007, 08:01 PM
skinslapper's Avatar
skinslapper skinslapper is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Perth Western Australia
Posts: 1,546
skinslapper is on a distinguished road
Firstly, I was telling both of you off. I agree with you, but the only way you're going to stop this is by flooding it out with the positive, helpful stuff.

People on these forums are too quick to abbandon the site due to bad conversation. I mean seriously, if we were all sitting around talking face to face, we'd ignore pointless arrogancies, and change the topic back to what we wanted.

We can't go around silencing people because we don't like their opinions, we just have to fill the place up with more of the positive, open ended talk that will invite others to come here. Then they can make up their minds to ignore the piffle negatives and engage with the rest of us.

Don't give up on this site people. It is just a place to meet. How you use it is up to you.
Reply With Quote

  #16  
Old 07-07-2007, 10:28 AM
Church Drummer's Avatar
Church Drummer Church Drummer is offline
Level 11 - Ten Stroke Roll
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 353
Church Drummer is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to Church Drummer
Skin slapper makes some good points about keeping the forum positive. I agree with most of upstrokes comments, about groups that play for free driving the price down. This is certainly not the fault of any individual but a bad trend that has started, by a few well meaning musicians who want to play for the love of playing. 20 years ago a bar wouldn't even think about asking a band to come in and play for free, because the band would just laugh at them. Now it is common place. As a former musicians union member I also agree with him that was the major downfall of the musicians union. The only people who belong to the union now (here in Rochester anyways) are the handfull that get called to play for the big shows that come to town. His comment about renting a brain was probably meant in jest, but those types of comments because of the lack of facial expression, tone of voice, etc. don't always work well in this medium. This comment probably would have been ignored, or he probably would have apoligized or explained himself further in a conversation. In a forum like this once you put a comment out their like that, it is hard to take it back.

This could have been a great discussion about the merits of getting out there and playing (even when there is no money involved), balanced with keeping it possible for musicians to make a little money for what they do.

It is getting to the point where being a prefessional musician is something that is going to be limited to an elite few. People are giving away there services and talent over the internet, in clubs and bars, etc. No one wants to pay for a musicians services anymore because of it. The only way clubs and bars will start paying bands a reasonable wage again, is if musicians band together and say look we have a lot of time, and money invested in learning our trade and purchasing and maintaining our instruments, we need to get compensated for it.

If your buddy was an auto mechanic would you ask him to drag his tools over to your house, and fix your car and not offer to pay him, but then you'll turn around and ask your band mates to drag their equipment out to play his wedding reception, kids barmitzvah etc for free. Yes we love what we do, my wife has an Aunt who is a professional Artist (painter) she loves what she does too, but I can guaratee you she doesn't give away her paintings. If we want there to be a place in the world for struggling musicians to work their way up the ladder, and still be able to take home a little bit of money while doing it then we have to stop giving away our talent to Bars and clubs who are trying to make money off of our backs. There are venues where it is appropriate to play for free, and there are many worthwhile causes to do it for, if you just want to play and don't care to get payed seek those out. Leave the bars and clubs for the professional and semi-professional musicians who are trying to work their way up the food chain to possibly someday be able to make a living with their music. I played guitar in a country band in bars for years, and got sick of it after a while (and back then the money was half way decent). I found it much more enjoyable to play for sober people, and focused my energies on playing in church, and for other community groups. I do a lot of playing for free, but on the occasions when I do get called to play for a bar or club I still expect to get paid or I won't do it. I also won't play a wedding, or other private party for free unless it is for one of my bandmates, or a member of their immediate family. People don't think anything about hiring a DJ for $700 or $800 for a party, why would a band consider taking less to play the same party?
Reply With Quote

  #17  
Old 07-07-2007, 11:10 AM
lastditch's Avatar
lastditch lastditch is offline
Level 9 - Seven Stroke Roll
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Holiday,FL
Posts: 253
lastditch is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinslapper View Post
Firstly, I was telling both of you off. I agree with you, but the only way you're going to stop this is by flooding it out with the positive, helpful stuff.

People on these forums are too quick to abbandon the site due to bad conversation. I mean seriously, if we were all sitting around talking face to face, we'd ignore pointless arrogancies, and change the topic back to what we wanted.

We can't go around silencing people because we don't like their opinions, we just have to fill the place up with more of the positive, open ended talk that will invite others to come here. Then they can make up their minds to ignore the piffle negatives and engage with the rest of us.

Don't give up on this site people. It is just a place to meet. How you use it is up to you.
Very well put Adam,sorry,I just get frustrated.I hate seeing people looking for advice and getting insulted.Yes,there are 2 sides to every point but lets try and be mature.I don't expect everyone to agree w/ all the points made here.I see plenty of things I disagree w/ ,but have never once tried to make it personal.I will try in the future to just look past these things and keep it positive,again,sorry.
Reply With Quote

  #18  
Old 07-07-2007, 11:26 AM
lastditch's Avatar
lastditch lastditch is offline
Level 9 - Seven Stroke Roll
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Holiday,FL
Posts: 253
lastditch is on a distinguished road
OK everyone,lets start by admitting that it is 2007.I keep hearing about "20 years ago" and back in the day.I don't know about where you live but here in Tampa FL. there are more bands in every genre than you could possibly imagine.The band to club ratio is like 100:1.Booking is cutthroat and the scene here has become a big "clique".If you don't roll w/ this crew or know this guy,forget it.Now,I'm supposed to run into a club that is booked solid for 2 months and demand a guarantee?What we do is offer our sevices for free or minimal cost to delvelop a relationship w/ the club or promoter and we will work on money later.I don't believe that any of the trades Churchdrummer mentioned have never worked for free.Your aunt the artist has not sold every piece she has done.Mechanics I know are always doing something for a guy for free in the hopes off landing a bigger job w/ the customer later.Doctors go through internships for years and don't make squat!!Until they prove themselves in the field...
Reply With Quote

  #19  
Old 07-07-2007, 12:05 PM
Church Drummer's Avatar
Church Drummer Church Drummer is offline
Level 11 - Ten Stroke Roll
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 353
Church Drummer is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to Church Drummer
Lastditch I will concede it is 2007, and things certainly are different than they were 20 years ago. Why are they different? How can we get things back to where they were regarding Pay? Music is one of the few trades where people are being paid less than they were 20 years ago (with the exceptions of a few stars). You do have to look at how things work in your geographical area, and play the game by the rules of your area. I don't know how things work in your area, but here there are still a lot of large corporate jobs to be had (but people go to professional talent agents to book those), and the clubs will pay (normally a small minimum guaratee plus a % of the door). You say you start playing in a venue for free (or little money), and then start talking money after you've built up a relationship, is that working for you? If it is that's great, but if the club owner is getting you in there on a trial basis, and then he moves on to the next band when you start talking money you are being taken advantage of, and so are the other musicians who that club owner uses in the same way. It isn't my point to criticize anyone who plays for free, my question is how can we make it so that musicians can get an opportunity to play out and build their reputations, and still not go bankrupt doing it. Even a Medical intern (as you mentioned) doesn't work for free. Sure he has to put in his dues, before he makes the big bucks, but he still makes enough to survive. I used to know local musicians who didn't need a day job, they are very hard to find now a days, how can we fix that?
Reply With Quote

  #20  
Old 07-07-2007, 05:55 PM
lastditch's Avatar
lastditch lastditch is offline
Level 9 - Seven Stroke Roll
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Holiday,FL
Posts: 253
lastditch is on a distinguished road
I think things may be a bit different for me as I currently play in a band that is not your most accessible sound.We are much too heavy to ever expect to make serious money.So,I guess I am speaking a bit out of my element.I don't thing that things I practice are such a great idea for say a more accessible act like a jazz band or a cover band.I will say that I would never do a gig for free in a situation like this.Shows for me and my band are more an opportunity to showcase,promote, and generally play in front of new ears and get the name out there.I do admit a return on my investment would be great,it is a point I bring up to the band often.I don't have any expectations though.I have learned compromise is the most important thing in a band.When I want to make a living playing,I will seek a profitable situation.
Reply With Quote

Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



The time is now 02:32 PM GMT -4.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

 
      Copyright 2007 Teaguy Design. All Rights Reserved.  
 
About Us